1000x500mm high precision router build - NEED FORUM HELP

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1000x500mm high precision router build - NEED FORUM HELP

Postby NUDEcnc » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:23 pm

-- in red color are questions for the forum --
After many years working on China's CNC machine SYIL X5 with Mach3 with Smoothstepper
youtube - https://youtu.be/oYdJZdeMTzE
I decided to build my own CNC :)

This is the early version of the machine which I want to build.
maszyna CNC poprawiona 4 4.jpg

maszyna CNC poprawiona 4 3.jpg


BUILD INFO:
The main chassis will be made from granite.
Controller:
After many problems with Mach3 ( drilling G83 never worked correctly and 3D machining worked like... ) I decided to give a try UCCNC 8-)
Which version of UCCNC should I pick? UC100, UC300, UC300ETH or UC400ETH
Which uccnc breakout board should I use? UB1, UCBB

LINEAR RAILS AND SLIDERS FROM HIWIN sold by
http://www.fasttobuy.com Any experience with this company, can you recommend alternative?
2x 1340mm HGR25R;
1x 800mm HGR20R;
1X 420mm HGR20R
slider blocks
4X HGW25HA
8X HGH20CA
ballscrews TBI sold by http://www.fasttobuy.com
SFU2504-L1280
SFU2004-L930
SFU2004-L400

BALLSCREW SUPPORT UNITS from
https://www.syk.tw Any expierance with this compay, can you recomend alternative?

JGL-100/2.5R24-25 - ATC spindle 24000rpm 2.5kW from :
http://www.jian-ken.com/electric-spindle-machining-center/pneumatic-tool-changing-motorized-spindle.html
review of the spindle - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWNeW-lH9RA&t=1159s
If I add an encoder to the spindle will I be able to use rigid/floating tapping with this spindle? I hope to use small taps M2- M6 in plastic and aluminium? VFD has a braking resistor function

SUNFAR VFD E550-2S0040B 1000HZ with RS485 interface, support MODBUS -recomendet by spindle seller
manual- http://sion.rs/download/sunfar/E550manual.pdf
Rated capacity (KVA)6.3
Rated output current (A) 16.5
Adaptive motor power (KW) 4.0
Is this compatible with UCCNC?

Toauto NEMA 34 Digital AC Servo Drive Motor 90ST-M02430 2.4NM 750W 220V High Speed 3000rpm for CNC Router
Control mode: IGBT PWM sine wave control sold by http://www.fasttobuy.com
https://www.fasttobuy.com/nema-34-digital-ac-servo-drive-motor-24nm-750w-220v-high-speed-3000rpm-for-cnc-router_p35886.html
Looks like this servos are very popular in China and cost US$ 242.00 inc. cables and postage :shock: . Any experience with this servos? Anybody willing to help with setup?

Finally, I was trying to find basic wiring for 3 axes 4 servo UCCNC systems inc. relays, filters, cable spec, etc. - any suggestions of the thread with basic diagrams to start?

Additional functions:
- ATC
- uccnc mpg -
- arduino cnc control. Panel - like in video made by Battwell - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QUOmCKuJHQ
- laser attachment for engraving.


My knowledge about electronics and programming (like macros) at the moment is close to ZERO but I hope I will be able to put this machine all together with the help of this great community :)

Regards Arek
CPU cooling made by me: http://www.nudecnc.eu
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Re: 1000x500mm high precision router build - NEED FORUM HELP

Postby cncdrive » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:12 pm

I can comment about the motion controller and BOB only:

I would sure use an ethernet controller, because ethernet gives isolated communication which is more industrial and far less noise sensitve than USB.
And then I would pick the UC300ETH, because it has analog ports, so you do not need anything else to control your spindle speed with a VFD analog 0-10V and you can place 2 potentiometers on the analog inputs to control the spindle speed override and feedrate override which is a handy function to use potentiometers for those.
And then you can pick the UC300ETH-5LPT and the UCBB or the UC300ETH module and the UB1 motherboard.

And one comment about servos: Is that if this is your first machine then first do your research about inertia matching of servos to the driven mechanism, because it is very easy to make a servo system worse than a stepper system, you just have to missmatch the inertia and you will have a slow and laggy machine.
It is simpler to use steppers or closed loop steppers, they are not as responsive as real servos, because the motor is stepper, but it has an encoder feedback and closed loop and because the motor is a stepper you do not have to worry about inertia matching, because the stepper has high pole count and therefor a large low speed torque, so it is simple to fit it to the driven mechanism, no need to calculate too much. :)
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Re: 1000x500mm high precision router build - NEED FORUM HELP

Postby cncdrive » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:12 pm

I can comment about the motion controller and BOB only:

I would sure use an ethernet controller, because ethernet gives isolated communication which is more industrial and far less noise sensitve than USB.
And then I would pick the UC300ETH, because it has analog ports, so you do not need anything else to control your spindle speed with a VFD analog 0-10V and you can place 2 potentiometers on the analog inputs to control the spindle speed override and feedrate override which is a handy function to use potentiometers for those.
And then you can pick the UC300ETH-5LPT and the UCBB or the UC300ETH module and the UB1 motherboard.

And one comment about servos: Is that if this is your first machine then first do your research about inertia matching of servos to the driven mechanism, because it is very easy to make a servo system worse than a stepper system, you just have to missmatch the inertia and you will have a slow and laggy machine.
It is simpler to use steppers or closed loop steppers, they are not as responsive as real servos, because the motor is stepper, but it has an encoder feedback and closed loop and because the motor is a stepper you do not have to worry about inertia matching, because the stepper has high pole count and therefor a large low speed torque, so it is simple to fit it to the driven mechanism, no need to calculate too much. :)
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Re: 1000x500mm high precision router build - NEED FORUM HELP

Postby Robertspark » Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:43 am

cncdrive wrote: .... do your research about inertia matching of servos to the driven mechanism, because it is very easy to make a servo system worse than a stepper system, you just have to missmatch the inertia and you will have a slow and laggy machine.
It is simpler to use steppers or closed loop steppers, they are not as responsive as real servos, because the motor is stepper, but it has an encoder feedback and closed loop and because the motor is a stepper you do not have to worry about inertia matching, because the stepper has high pole count and therefor a large low speed torque, so it is simple to fit it to the driven mechanism, no need to calculate too much. :)


Now you have me interested.... Do you have and links or guides to servo matching and the calculations required?

My curiosity and always learning.
Rob
Einstein ― “If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself”
...working my way through the 1000+ ways things don't work to find the one that does
UC400eth, UC300eth, UCCNC v1.2110, Neuron Lite
UCCNC v1.2110 Macro Manual
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Re: 1000x500mm high precision router build - NEED FORUM HELP

Postby NUDEcnc » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:03 pm

cncdrive wrote:And one comment about servos: Is that if this is your first machine then first do your research about inertia matching of servos to the driven mechanism, because it is very easy to make a servo system worse than a stepper system, you just have to missmatch the inertia and you will have a slow and laggy machine.


That's one of the problems that I have with this servos.
As I'm using Solidworks I can easily calculate theoretical inertia of the system, but... It will be theoretical (based on many assumptions) I have no idea how accurate calculations must be.


Alternative option which I was looking for is:
High Torque 12NM Nema 34 DSP Closed Loop Stepper Drive Motor AC60V With Power Supply for CNC Engraving
https://www.fasttobuy.com/high-torque-12nm-nema-34-dsp-closed-loop-stepper-drive-motor-ac60v-with-power-supply-for-cnc-engraving_p36951.html

CS-M234120_Torque Curves.png

It looks that if the driver will be connected to AC60V supply I should have ~2Nm of torque @1500RPM (not far from servo's 2.4Nm).
As I have 4mm pitch screws this gives me 6000mm/min! As I usually use small endmills (1-6mm) this will more than enough to cut aluminium with 24000rpm spindle.
My main work is iMachining (morfing HSM) so I want quick direction changes. 12Nm should help me with that.
Are my calculations correct?
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Re: 1000x500mm high precision router build - NEED FORUM HELP

Postby Robertspark » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:38 pm

Rob
Einstein ― “If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself”
...working my way through the 1000+ ways things don't work to find the one that does
UC400eth, UC300eth, UCCNC v1.2110, Neuron Lite
UCCNC v1.2110 Macro Manual
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Re: 1000x500mm high precision router build - NEED FORUM HELP

Postby ger21 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:49 pm

What's the purpose of this machine, as this may influence the choice of components.

For ballscrews and linear rails, look at BST Automation on AliExpress. They are very popular.
I have used FasttoBuy for gearboxes, and received high quality components.

Typically, routers use higher pitch ballscrews, at least 10mm or 20mm. Screw whip can be an issue with higher router speeds.

I would go with a name brand VFD, rather than a cheap chinese one. You're already spending a lot of money. Something like a Bosch, Hitachi, Yaskawa, ...

While you can get some great deals on chinese servos, if you don't know what you are doing, they can be difficult to set up, due to poor documentation. I'd spend a bit more on better servos. Maybe Delta? But they will cost twice as much.

If you buy quality components, they will usually come with good diagrams. With cheap chinese gear, you're often on your own.
Gerry
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Re: 1000x500mm high precision router build - NEED FORUM HELP

Postby NUDEcnc » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:21 pm

ger21 wrote:What's the purpose of this machine, as this may influence the choice of components.

Your right, I should start with that :)
I want to cut plastics, carbon fibre and non-ferrous metals mostly copper and aluminium. For the programming, I'm using Solidcam CAD inc. HSM strategies. Parts which I'm machining will be rather small max 200mm across. Parts are cut from a single plate of metal/plastic, that's why I wanted 1000x500mm cutting area ( standard plate size is 2000x1000 which I can cut in 4 pieces so I have a minimal material loss).
With any build, it's always a tradeoff. I decided to invest in mechanical parts in this build. It's pointless to have quality servos or VFD's if I will have 0.1mm backlash.
I decided to go with granite as I come from Poland where we have granite mines, so the material is very competitive comparing steel or aluminium. Also, I will go with white granite not black as it's 3 times cheaper (in Poland). Assembly will be much easier/cheaper to screw/glue granite than ask someone to weld/temper steel construction.


ger21 wrote:For ballscrews and linear rails, look at BST Automation on AliExpress. They are very popular.
I have used FasttoBuy for gearboxes, and received high quality components.

I did contact BST Automation - waiting for the reply

ger21 wrote:Typically, routers use higher pitch ballscrews, at least 10mm or 20mm. Screw whip can be an issue with higher router speeds.

Are you refer to screw pitch or diameter? I piked screws according to manufacturer specification and:
Y-axis -2 screws 1340mm - 25mm diameter
X 800mm and Z 420mm - 20mm diameter

ger21 wrote:I would go with a name brand VFD, rather than a cheap chinese one. You're already spending a lot of money. Something like a Bosch, Hitachi, Yaskawa, ...

VFD was recommended by the spindle manufacturer after I asked for quality VFD. It's SUNFAR VFD E550-2S0040B and it cost ~250USD. So it's a similar cost to Yaskawa VFD. Spindle seller is very helpful and will provide preset VFD for spindle so for me that's a big help.
VFD manual: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-WnxWge6uH2JoIfbKBbLm3v8LGP-oFlR/view?usp=sharing

ger21 wrote:While you can get some great deals on Chinese servos, if you don't know what you are doing, they can be difficult to set up, due to poor documentation. I'd spend a bit more on better servos. Maybe Delta? But they will cost twice as much.

As you mentioned anything quality will cost 2x or 3x more.
I'm thinking about 12NM Nema 34 DSP Closed Loop Stepper - if my calculations in the 4th post are correct I believe that loop steppers would be fine for the start. If the machine will earn for itself I will treat it with something better :) Also steppers are much cheaper then any servo :)


ger21 wrote:If you buy quality components, they will usually come with good diagrams. With cheap Chinese gear, you're often on your own.

THIS IS SO TRUE !!!
I just received the manual for servos which I mentioned in the first post... And it looks like it was translated by google to English :(
Servo manual: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YEXfmB8RmomhoxSYIvs0ccu9r035ehFe

P.S. ger21 thank you for what you doing for CNC community. I'm using your @2010 Screenset@ for last 5-6 years now. And I will definitely use @2017@ with UCCNC 8-)

Regards Arek
CPU cooling made by me: http://www.nudecnc.eu
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Re: 1000x500mm high precision router build - NEED FORUM HELP

Postby NUDEcnc » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:37 pm

Robertspark wrote:https://www.cnczone.com/forums/epoxy-granite/354358-cnc-2.html


I based my design on this project !!!
I'm ordering components directly from the granite mine. They will cut, drill and lap all components on CNC.
One company who I contacted makes measuring tables from granite. They were very excited about this project.
I expect to have parts much more precise than any steel or aluminium options :)
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Re: 1000x500mm high precision router build - NEED FORUM HELP

Postby ger21 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:49 pm

I was referring to pitch. Especially of you start with steppers, you'll want a pitch of at least 10mm. And if you go with steppers, 12Nm are too large, and will actually decrease performance. Smaller motors with lower inductance will perform much better. Something in the 4-6Nm range, with very low inductance, and a current rating of 6-7amps will be much better.
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